if you have symptoms of this infection ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction. you may have an increased risk for lower limb loss. call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of infection in your legs or feet. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell ♪ ♪ the little pill ♪ ♪ with a big story to tell! ♪ emotional testimony happening right now in the courtroom as the cross-examination is underway of former u.s. president donald trump's executive assistant madeleine westerhout shoes speaking fondly of her time in the white house and working for president trump before he was president. we will wait for them to come out of the courtroom that is the story for today. see you tomorrow, have a great afternoon. [ ♪♪ ] >> neil: donald trump

back in court with stormy daniels back on the stand as well as others. now the question is did her second day under intense grilling by the trump legal neil: team help or hurt the prosecution's case? you might be surprised as we wait to hear from the former president himself. we are on all of this, welcome everyone i am neil cavuto this is your world. busy day today and a busy lineup of witnesses. of course stormy daniels getting the most attention but not the only attention. nate foy has more. >> from the superior court former president donald drum we just learned will speak and that will happen earlier than the typical 4:30 pm time. the jury we'll be let out early as trump's lawyers are bringing some concerns to the judge. first, i want to give you an update on the testimony, the cross-examination of madeleine westerhout is now underway led by susan necklace 1 of trump's

attorneys. madeleine westerhout was trump executive assistant at the white house she got emotional on the stand neil talking about positive memories she has about trump and his family she spoke about his relationship with his wife and it's 1 of mutual respect and she said she thinks he is treated unfairly. she also talked about facilitating his calls and communication including with dave parker. she also answered question about how finances were handled she said checks would arrive from new york and she would bring them to trump for him to sign parachute testified he is vary detail oriented and didn't have a computer or e-mail account he preferred heart documents. and as he mentioned film actress stormy daniels wrapped up her testimony. you see her here with her lawyer in the courthouse today in the waiting room as she took the stand. trump's attorneys question her about her credibility and motives. daniels maintains she just wanted to get her story up a

trump's lawyers pointed to all of the money she is made on the trump story. the lawyers also asked her about her claims that she can speak to dead people and her social media attacks on the former president for example when sewing referred to her as a human toilet daniels posted online "the best person to flush the orange turd down". trump denies having an affair with her and her lawyers said her story changed over the years because it never happened and she is just trying to profit off the former president. right off the top of this report neil i told you trump's lawyers are going to bring some concerns to the judge and that the jury we'll be let out early today. those 3 concerns, 1 is the gag order trump expressed his disdain for that he thinks it's unfair while entering court today. they also have concerns about possible testimony from karen mcdougall and they're going to ask again for a mistrial, something dave artie done and it was denied by judge juan

merchan. neil. >> neil: thank you for that. we are waiting for the former president and will no doubt come out, he will speak about all of this. thank you andy and katie. let me get you take andy on what's happening in court now. i didn't understand what the judge is trying to under out with the prosecutor, can you explain that? >> i think it's typical if there are legal issues that have to be taken up outside the presence of the jury, the judge doesn't like to waste the jury's time. they like to put them back in the jury room but not when they're just wondering what's going on in the courtroom. he would rather and the testimony part of the day early so we get that the jury go home and then -- then have the proceeding. it happens in the every trial where the lawyer is trying to iron out the legal this point -- disputes on the table so they can resolve those without wasting the jury's time.

that's the reason they are let out early. i thank the most important thing evidently trump is going to a court to try to get review on the gag order. but do we have trump now? sorry. >> neil: sorry to confusing. >> i apologize. the important thing here and i think is the mistrial motion. they need to make a good record on that, they made a record on tuesday but they had a day off wednesday and i think what you really want to do in this instance is layout how badly trump has been prejudiced by the judges indulgence and letting him this -- but this testimony on from stormy daniels which was a negligible prohibitive value but was really prejudicial and made front and centre this sexual escapade that alleged in 2006 and its app to cause jury

confusion as also so they need to make a strong record on that. >> neil: the reason i'd asked andy that question katie is a kind of gets to something i want to bring up with you. the judges are careful to not necessarily get into some of these details he didn't want the jury around for. he wasn't so careful about a lot of the stuff we heard out of stormy daniels. he didn't stall or stop or care if the jury heard or not. it might be apples and oranges but it's kind of odd to me. >> i totally agree that with no concern about the jury hearing completely irrelevant information from stormy daniels that the judge himself ruled was not appropriate or not admissible but then didn't stop the testimony from coming in. he plan the testimony of -- the defence but they already had that issue a couple times raising motions regarding her

testimony. so it wasn't on them to continue to insist upon not letting in admissible evidence and. so i think that was a bit of a cheap shot by the judge and certainly the jury now had their time wasted listening to 11 information that has not dew with the charges whatsoever. i think they may have lost patients with the prosecution over that quite frankly. they only have so much patience they realize it's been tried in new york city where crime runs rampant yet here we are in this courtroom with all these time and resources going into a case that they haven't been showing every -- any evidence of criminality. everyone knows what a crime looks like, everyone is confused because there has been absolutely no indication of what donald trump did that's criminal and that's frankly frustrating i'm sure for the jury. >> i'm wondering what the controversy over the wisdom of putting stormy daniels on the stand hack andy and putting you in the position of being lawyer for the prosecution here, would you risk that with karen

mcdougall? >> i think they were already weigh duggan and i guess i would put it this way. the stormy daniels testimony while i agree with everything katie said about it is at least arguably relevant if you are -- the 34 charges stem from paying the nondisclosure agreement to stormy daniels. so they at least had a plausible argument they could make with a straight face to complete the story we needed to hear from her testimony but mcdougall is only relevant to the fantasy version of the case which is the distortion of the indictment that's a figment of brands and imagination as opposed to what the charges actually are. he's tried to to pitch this case to the jury as a conspiracy to steal the 2016 election.

mcdougall is relevant because she is 1 of the women who was paid pursuant to what is meant to be an agreement made between trump and david packer and michael cohen going back to 2015. so what bragg is trying to do is take this case back to 2015 as if it were a big conspiracy when the point of fact the charges and the indictment are 34 payments made between february and december 2017. i think she is a more remote relevance then stormy daniel was and given how prejudice they have been and how it was too trump for the jury to hear stormy daniels testimony i think they're really playing with fire. i think actually if they cared about their record they would not put mcdougall on but i still

think this is a political scheme. i thank the objective is to just get trump convicted if they can so biden can call him a convicted felon for the next few months. i don't think they much care if they get a reversal on appeal a year or 2 from now. >> katie to that point but you think we they might as well then double down. but it carries those risks not the least of which getting this thing safely appealed. it's not over i'm misplaced that. i am sorry katie. there is maybe a risk certainly on appeal karen mcdougall to testify herself but maybe that's not there worry, it's all about embarrassing the former president and whether it is appealed or not the damage is done before the election. >> while i agree with you

because there is already so much reversible error in this record based upon the judge's rulings at a lot of the testimony that's come in. certainly it does not seem to be the primary concern for prosecution they want to get as much piercing information against president trump as it possibly can. it seems to be the game plan. they may very well continue down that path because judge juan merchan will give them there blessing -- his blessing as we have seen. >> neil: we were waiting to hear from a former president and he will come a. it's more convoluted today than it has been prior days but he promised folks he would talk. and of course it always brings up issues surrounding the gag order which also came up today. we will spell it all out for you meantime i want to draw your attention to the corner of wall and brought today. a lot of e-mail and asked if the market is in its own world. today was a classic example with protests going on, you know, all of this back-and-forth with washington trying to vote on if

the speaker should be tossed out again and he wasn't. than this ongoing trial which is unthinkable almost surreal in the scheme of thanks. and is just a couple miles away from hacker couple thousand feet from where this big trial is going on here and there really focused on things like the prospect's are slowing down enough to warrant another cut in interest rates. some people were thinking certainly an environment like that without a reserve would have to entertain cutting interest rates at least once before the end. that's the hope of the day. will get into that also as i said we are waiting to hear from donald trump and what he made of today's developments and witnesses that could come up. more financial types talk about michael cohen and what he says and does it's a crucial storyline. we will have more after this sites at once? i like to do things myself.

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it might be because of the ramifications of the stormy daniels testimony and if it went a bridge too far but again karen mcdougall will not be called to testify at by the prosecution in this hush money trial. more on that but first take a look at this... >> going to rafah i'm not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with the rafah tact to deal with the cities and deal with that problem. >> there is a lot as steak here i thank the region and the world is going to second-guess relationships with us in the future if you don't change your mind. >> we are talking about the president how he intervened to stop some weapons from getting to israel here. it didn't mean that they are going to stop military aid and help for israel but anything that could be used to make like uncomfortable for those in gaza that was going to stop. not entirely unprecedented on the part of the president but it's unusual still deceive this kind of thing happen where you can pick and choose what weapons

and armaments get into a country. lieutenant colonel bob mcginnis joins us now. divided we stand at the globalist scheme for 1 world government. kernel it strikes me as someone who's already agreed on the menu and the restaurant decides all right we don't think it's wise for you to have the appetizer or dessert we are taking out of their. it just seems weird but i know not completely unprecedented. what you make of that? >> it's out of sync with what he is said from the beginning back in october. the reality is the use of bombs is important to the idea of israeli defence force because if they don't than they have 2 cohen room by room clear out more than a million plus people and thousands of buildings. that would devastate the idf. they are using precision guidance in order to deliver

some of these bombs but what has happened here of course there holding back 2500 pounds bombs and unknown to the civilian public it sounds pretty outrageous that you would use that but when you have good intelligence you know precisely where your enemy is. we believe that 4 battalions of hamas are stuck and raw for. you use that intelligence and use precision munitions and go after them. if you withhold those and of course it creates problems for the israeli defence force and that's what they want to prevent. they want to prevent significant losses of their forces. >> neil: i'm just wondering what the ramifications of this with benjamin netanyahu referencing this i'm paraphrasing but if we have to go alone than they will go alone. that's the message he got and that's the message increasingly israelis are getting. is that an accurate message?

>> it possibly is. i'm remembering a month ago the israelis came here in force and give us the stuff of munitions and other things that they want and we've been trying to provide that but of course here recently with the threat on college campuses across this country and of course benjamin netanyahu's political commitment to the israeli people is 2 cohen and wipeout hamas so you have to deal with that. the israelis have other sources they can change their tactics and their approach they take. taking rafah gate that goes into egypt and cutting it off here recently just because hamas was getting resupplied with weapons and finances through there. keep in mind neil that the hamas terrorists are using civilians as shields. as a result that makes this fight incredibly difficult. so the israelis see this as an extension threat and something

that we should not ignore even their our best ally in the region. >> we've talked about this issue and other presidents doing this in the past but normally and correct me if i'm wrong, that where it has not gotten out --.net in realtime. we find out about it later on. it's been broadcast to the world as if we are bragging about it. but the fact of the matter is for israel its humiliation isn't it? >> it is. of course if you indicate, eisenhower used it in the suez canal crisis and bush and reagan used it for other reasons but, you know, broadcasting this i think is for political purposes. why else would you let the secret out like this that were holding back and trying to pressure a good ally kept the israelis to do what we want them to do. otherwise it makes no sense. >> neil: i'm wondering where this goes and where this war

goes? obviously you're aware of all the protests going on around the country and dealing a lot with it in the london weather premised or has said, you know, we stand by israel and if anything gets violent or any anti-semitism we'll be punished. israel sees that and the senate building against them they see, it's quite a title wave. >> it is. that's why benjamin netanyahu said if we have 2 we will go at it alone. of course that's why he talked about the holocaust so we need to recognize where we are today. they face enemies on every front. those they thought were working with them are not being vary helpful and of course really the decisions are made in tehran. if they are feeling hamas, the houthi's, hesbollah and other

jihad and others throughout the region it's a hostile environment in which israel exists. they have to do what they think is necessary. we need to finish this off is what they're saying and i think they will go along if necessary and they have enough munitions now to finish the job. they probably, you know, once they do finish off hamas and gaza will probably turn north because they've pulled back all their civilians, at least many of them, from that border with lebanon just because the threat from hesbollah which is armed to the teeth with more than 100,000 rockets and missiles. >> neil: it is wild times indeed. colonel bob mcginnis on all that. we are keeping our eyes on that courthouse in manhattan where they are discussing in the meantime today this gag order and how much donald trump can and cannot say regarding testimony. also focusing on other developments trump as you know

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stormy daniels second day on the stand she is done. we are told right now karen mcdougall the playboy model that is also at the centre of a lot of this investigation we'll not be called by the prosecution to testify again and we are waiting to hear from donald trump himself. but we've got john back with us, the decision on the part of the prosecution not to bring karen mcdougall i think, what do you make that? >> i think it shows even the prosecution realizes they went too far 2 days ago by eliciting this salacious testimony. i agree with andy a segment ago where the importance of the testimony improving the legal case is vary small but obviously terribly prejudicial in the sense that it ruined his character before the jury. it's like running a reality tv show before the jury so they will be fixated and will keep it in their minds when they vote on whether they hold him guilty or

innocent. so saying they're not going to the next witness in a similar situation i thank the prosecution realizes they might have sparked a mistrial. don't push it at this point, maybe they can preserve their gains and go on to someone else like michael cohen. >> neil: i'm just mentioning they are addressing the gag order, the former president and his team and the judge has decided it will not be changed so he's got to watch what he says. what do you make of that? >> again i think this judge shows he is in over his head and this 1. this is not just about whether donald trump should be able to speak like any other criminal defendant -- defendant. the first amendment is about allowing political candidates to speak and allowing us as voters to hear people considering voting for high office. the judge is making a mistake and compounded it by extending

the power of his courtroom beyond to reach out and interfere in an election. >> neil: you know, john 1 thing i found intriguing about the defences position with stormy daniels they've said it again and again she is just in it for the money, she just wanted to make money. or, you know, deals and movies and otherwise she could have built off of that. it's an ignorant question but so what? why is that even think we she can claim that this happened of course donald trump said it's never happened. i don't understand the significance of that argument. >> the most important thing that witnesses have is their credibility before the jury. after the devastating testimony 2 days ago by stormy daniels trump's lawyers had to come out

i think and really destroy her story because it's so vivid back so prejudicial to the jury and to the voters who heard about it now and so the way you do that as you attack the credibility of the witness, provided motives she might have before making up a story completely. ethic it's hard to do for someone in stormy daniels' position so the trump lawyers saying you are lined because you make money by taking your clothes off and having sex on tv and in the movies. stormy daniels response is, yeah, that's what i due for a living so what else do i have to hide? >> neil: so than she could argue while he is lying saying it never happened. i guess we go back-and-forth on this but at the very least it would wipe out any possibility of donald trump taking the stand because this very issue would come operate? >> and neil again you better go to law school because you teaching people right now how to be a good trial lawyer peer if

you're the prosecution, you are trying to get trump on the stand. this would be a great victory if you can get him on the stand put them under oath and booby-trap them into committing perjury which could than send trump to jail. kai think i can't imagine a bigger mistake for him then to take the stand. but all -- after the damage stormy daniels has done nothing politically he wants to start talking about it outside the courtroom and i hope he doesn't but that may be car into. >> neil: 1 thing the judge has been careful to excuse the jury while they discussed some of the mechanics with the gag order et cetera. he wasn't nearly as cautious or careful when it came to some of the stuff he allowed stormy daniels to say in the first place. that was free. no in front of the jury. >> 2 reasons for that. 1 is basically the jury is in

charge of the facts and the judges in charge of the law. when it comes to hearing testimony the judge is going to say that's all about the fact i will let that go to the jury. thanks about the gag order, the first amended that's not up to the jury it's really only up to the judge. that's 1 reason. media second reason is may be judge juan merchan realizes now she should not have let stormy daniels testify that weigh she did and the detail she did. he might be worried now about getting reversed by the appeals court so he is being after cautious. >> neil: got it. thank you so much john. we told you about a number of developments of this is really the only legal game in town against former president so that carries some significance. a number -- number of other trials are either held off calculated or stopped in their tracks. a lot of progressives will try to stick it to donald trump

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u we could be moments away from hearing from former u.s. president donald trump. there is sort of donning the eyes and crossing the t-zone final instruction and detail among them the gag order donald trump's folks said it should be changed. he has to be careful with what he says about today's developments. lydia has been in this it -- state supreme court house. the significance of that, lydia joins us with more. >> hi there neil we're just

about to wrap up court hearing for the day, there are a number of witnesses called. i have 2 of them today. today we finished the cross-examination of stormy daniels which of course is the adult film star alleging she had the encounter with him in 2016 and they signed a nondisclosure agreement. today's defence attorneys finished off the cross-examination and about 3 hours. in comparison to tuesday where they started this process, today was much more calm. it was a methodical delivery of the cross-examination, lawyering at its finest. a big beam from the testimony was, defence attorneys accusing stormy daniels having an ulterior motive of money wanting to talk about her experiences with donald trump as a desire to make money. they say she is made over $1 million by so-called selling her story and books and media appearances pick the pointed out her stormy march she promotes on social media candles and t-shirts and the like in the

application there being of course how you can trust this person who is literally making money off talking about an encounter she alleged to have had with the former president. the other witness we heard from who was interesting was madeleine westerhout. i'm sure you remember neil she is the former is negative assistant to donald trump when he was in the oval office. she was called by prosecutors because her wall is important to closing the circle of documents and how they are passed from trump tower to the white house to sign michael cohen for his reimbursements to stormy daniels for this hush money. the checks or cut at trump towers and sent to the white house and were passed on to the president design. what was really fascinating neil is chanting i would argue

actually ended up being a much better witness for the defence of the former president. they had a very close relationship and you could tell chan 19 had vary fond feelings of working for him she shared he was a great boss to had and she admired his relationship and his family's relationship. and a particular him and his wife saying it was of mutual respect or she also talked about her time departing the white house which was widely reported came under circumstances she later regretted and she became very emotional while talking. during this testimony i was looking at the former president at the defence counsel table and he was weaning in and watching her as she was speaking seem to be interested in what she had to say. there were times i saw he would look at let todd blanche and they would exchange smiles or grants. it seemed like they weren't bothered by madeleine westerhout's testimony

whatsoever even though she is an important witness for the prosecution, neil. >> neil: i thought it was cute when they asked her if she was nervous and she said i am no. the kind of shows the pressure of the moment. i wonder when you are looking at donald trump and self during her testimony, he obviously paid more attention may be more interested in that then casey stormy daniels. what was your sense of what got his attention and who got his attention? >> i would say overall neil i noticed from the start of the day it felt like president trump and todd blanche as well and other defence counsel seemed relaxed, at ease when they took their seats at council table. there wasn't an error of tension or nervousness among them whatsoever. and as for what really got their attention, you know, got

president trump's attention, it was clear that there was some may be affection the right word, some fondness of madeleine westerhout when she sat down. he really took note of what she was saying and you could see his face looked relaxed like he was maybe happy to see her. >> neil: did you have a good look at the jurors themselves? not that that would mean anything, looks don't mean anything. when it came to financial details and what was processed and when and who, did that just seem so heavy and laden with details and spreadsheets and the rest, not that that was shown to the court i grant. that would not get as much attention as let's say stormy daniels wood. >> so, most of my days in the court want to have the opportunity to be here, i'm sitting in the overflow room which is the secondary room. the room not with the judge and attorneys and jurors. so i'm actually unable to see

them. but what i can tell you is i was in the main courtroom on tuesday. that was the first day stormy daniels took the stand. so i was able to observe the interactions between the parties and the jurors. it was a great opportunity to really see how interested the jurors were and listening to stormy daniels. that's how i could confidently say she is a great storyteller with a real story to tell. whether her testimony really should have been added to this case and if it has any connection to the falsification of business records is a dish it -- different issue i would say but it seemed like the jurors were interested and want she had to tell them. >> neil: got it. alright thank you lydia great reporting on that. you're attention to detail is amazing. again we heard from stormy daniels today she will not be back on the witness stand. karen mcdougall there is some sentiment building she would be called to testify but maybe

after the stormy daniels situation the prosecutors have said no were not going there. karen mcdougall will not be coming here. more after this count on propane to make everything great. but did you know propane also powers school buses that produce lower emissions that lead to higher test scores? or that propane can cut your energy costs at home? it powers big jobs and small ones too. from hospitals to hospitality, people rely on propane-an energy source that's affordable, plentiful, and environmentally friendly for everyone. get the facts at propane.com/now. - i got the cabin for three days. it's gonna be sweet! what? i'm 12 hours short. - have a fun weekend. - ♪ unnecessary action hero! unnecessary. ♪ - was that necessary? - no. neither is a blown weekend. with paycom, employees do their own payroll so you can fix problems before they become problems. - hmm! get paycom and make the unnecessary, unnecessary.

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i know it seems like waiting for judo but that is the former

president, when he speaks will go to them. the big story today was another day grilling -- sorry it looked like he was coming out but he is not. it was really for stormy daniels a chance to sort of not only get the defence back on a more offensive position to go after her on thanks. drooling her concerning 130,000 nondisclosure agreement she had signed with michael cohen, this was right near the close of the 2016 election. she had mentioned to her, you have a lot of experience making phony stories about sex. and replying that's not how i would put it, the sex and the films is very much real just like what happened to me in that room was real. if that story is untrue i would've written it to be a lot better. that gives you an idea of the tone and tenor of the back-and-forth with her today.

may be 1 of the reasons why karen mcdougall has not been called to be testifying at all. and mccarthy and katie czajkowski with this. obviously kitty after her credibility is where they're going. whether she can speak the truth, when she hasn't spoken the truth but to what end? >> well i thank the point of any cross-examination is to expose the credibility with the witness. stormy daniels has plenty to work with but ultimately whatever she says about her motivations to get this money whether it was a true story or exaggerated story or a false story, does not mean president trump cannot enter into an nda with her if that's something that's in his personal interest. ultimately the only witness that really matters for bragg as if he calls an expert to the stand to testify at that it is inappropriate as an accounting matter to classify legal

expenses of the sort as legal expenses. that's the only question before the jury ultimately. nothing has even come close to establishing the falsity of those records and a minimum. >> neil: so that gets us back and due to weather it was meant to be a legal issue that could corner the former president or just an opportunity for the prosecution to humiliate him. whether it scores legal points or not the damage is done on matter how the court case takes out. what do you think we. >> i think if you look at it as a legal matter if this was an ordinary case that came into the prosecutors office it wouldn't be prosecuted. i say that because even if for arguments sake, bracket can establish these records are full, that would not be enough even to prove the misdemeanour offence. you have to pre-- prove not only

the records are factually incorrect, but that they were done, the falsity was done with the motive to defraud or purpose to defraud. and i don't see out with evidence in this case of fraudulent intent which means if you can't prove fraudulent intent at all you never even get to the question which is beyond the beyond as far as i'm concerned for the felony, that the fraudulent intent had to include not complying with the federal campaign finance laws. i don't see a scintilla of evidence in this case that trump was even thinking about campaign finance laws. there's a big difference between saying we want to keep this information under wraps prior to the election to not hurt our chances to be elected, versus saying we are aware of what the

campaign finance laws are required for expenditures and we want to misrepresent what we did here in order to defeat those laws. i thank the evidence we have heard about how exacting trump was in counting every penny which is a big thing bragg wants to show, it seems to me that if he new that prosecutors would say that the payments such as the 1 given to stormy daniels covered by the federal campaign finance laws he would have paint -- paid them with campaign money. so, to me there is no indication at all that trump was even thinking about the campaign finance laws. >> neil: katie could i ask you about this gag order the judge didn't change. donald trump's legal team wanted it modified at a minimum, nothing changes but that. but i am not clear as to what he can and cannot say when he talks to reporters presumably in a few

minutes. >> that's exactly the problem with the gag order its unconstitutionally vaxxed. the language of it itself says president trump cannot comment on the participation of witnesses. so the fact the defence asked now that stormy daniels has testified, her participation is low longer an issue. so, can he speak about her testimony at this point? it seems to go outside what the explicit language of the order is but again the judge has denied that request showcasing the unconstitutionality of this order on 1 of many grounds which is the vagueness you cannot reasonably tell what type of light which is prohibited. we've seen he is being punished for posting other people's articles as some sort of direct violation of this order. any limitations on speech certainly need to be clear enough to be able to be understood and abided by which is 1 of the significant issues we have here. so not surprising the judge did not modify the order but it is

in fact unconstitutional. >> neil: and andy what does it limit the former president can say? he cannot cite specific witnesses, we all know what and who he's talking about unsatisfied leaving the courthouse but what are the limitations on it? >> exactly as katie said the main 1 is that he can't talk about witnesses but what i would say about that meal because this post to a lot about what we've been talking about witches i think judge juan merchan and bragg are trying to squeeze trump into testifying even though i think that has become much less likely after he let stormy daniels testify because now trump would have to testify all that stuff which shouldn't be in the case. i think what the judges say to him is look big guy you want to talk about the witnesses, get in the stand. take the oath then you can answer all the questions about all the witnesses to your hearts

content. but he is telling them as a presidential candidate under circumstances with everyone on the planet including michael cohen was out last night with his t-shirt on with trump behind bars. >> neil: that was incredible i can't believe that. there should be a law against that. >> there should be a law against michael cohen. but the point is everyone can talk about the case, biden can talk about it, all of the democrats can, witness -- witnesses can talk about it. the judge is saying if you want to talk about it take the oath and get in the witness stand. >> neil: thank you guys very much. i know it seems like i'm teasing you to say the former president is coming up, you supposed to and he wants to talk but held up in the courthouse. again they were discussing the trump people who wanted to get rid of this gag order its not going to happen. joan, if that doesn't happen and you were donald trump's lawyer, what would you tell him and how

would you tell him to adjust himself when he comes out? >> it's hard to figure out how donald trump can actually say all the damage that was caused by stormy daniels' testimony without violating the gag order. so i think what trump has been doing, i think it's actually smart, to turn away from the trial entirely and start attacking biden. as we talked about before, neil, he did a jujitsu where he turned these legal setbacks into political gold for him. may be the best thing he can do is attacking biden for withholding arms from israel over inflation, over the economy. use all of these appearances as basically many press conferences for the campaign. i don't think he can advance his campaign repeating any of the attacks on the jury or witnesses which would be a violation of the gag order anyway. >> neil: as you told me there is ample grounds to appeal the

case regardless of what happens. but having said that the issue i know we'll be raised in the campaign seeing as this is likely the only case adjudicated before the election the fault the other cases out there with delays and problems. people are going to say he lied about never meeting this woman, she gave enough details that indicate it did happen. and he has not said anything to the contrary since her testimony. that might be a leap to far and he might in fact reinforce that this didn't happen, what you think? >> donald trump is a gambler, we've known that a long time. he used to run this he knows he is familiar with gambling. maybe he rolls the dice and says i will take the stand i'm going to deny everything she said on the stand under oath. that's when all the american people are watching. >> neil: it could open him up for perjury in a worst-case.

>> exactly at thank it's a terrible idea for him. what he could do is once the case is done and the verdict comes in, you will than be free. to talk about the witness. may be the smart thing for him to do would be to weight until a bit later than give his views and he could say i wasn't lying she was like our told the truth this was all outrageous prosecution like the other cases against him. >> neil: got it john think you so much. i can still waiting on the former president. talking about the trial call it a sham as it is and will focus on big matters i don't know if you will mention the big run-up in the down today up 331 points. that born the fact interest rates might come down after all. something tells me that might not be 1 of the issues he raises but there you have it. down up his legal future in doubt. [ ♪♪ >>