jersey at 5:00 online at c-span. org. >> nonfiction book lovers, c-span has a podcast for you. on the scwoa after words podcast and hear arranging interviews with authors. book notes plus a weekly conversation that feature fascinating authors of nonfiction books on the about books podcast takes you behind the publishing industry with sphri updates. find all of our podcasts by downloading c-span now. c-span. org/podcasts. >> next, a look at the u.s. role in development banks with assistant treasury secretary for

international trade and posted by strategic and international studies. this is about an hour. >> i am ready for my close up. we are live. i'm just kidding. alexiala tut y is a effective public servant and lucky to have her as the assistant secretary of the treasury for international affairs -- for trade and development. it's a really big job at the treasury department. she oversees the relations and has served at the treasury department before. she is really smart and really

effective. you can read her bio. but i like her personally and everybody in town thinks she is smart, effective and don't want to mess with her. so i'm really happy to be having this conversation. i'm interested and i hope if i call you lexi. >> wonderful. >> she has an important role at treasury, but i'm obsessed with leadership. did you follow my work and i have written after poem after poem and paper after paper. the united states has to ride on the multi lateral system. that is not the term but for my people, we need to mind the story. need to mind the store. part of the way we do that is

through effective leadership like alexia. they are a force multiplier in my view if we are writing heard of a western form of globalization and if we are not writing heard it is another form of globalization and you leave a vacuum someone else is going to fill that vacuum.

and but i would just say because i think there is a lot on the agenda because of the work she's doing and the impact she's having. so, ok. having said all that, thanks for being here and welcome. so could we just start, how did you get into this business? how do you get into the development business? >> thank you so much for having me. if there is someone with smart, with flair with frank talk, who is a patriot himself and everything he does every day and -- [indisindiscernible] >> he makes our job easier because we benefit. i want to thank you, dan, for

your tireless commitment. you know, i got in this business almost by osmosis. my father worked in international development. i grew up for 10 years in west africa and austria and he was working for an international organization. all our dinner table why did some people live in countries that have less opportunities than others and how do you change that? and i have to admit, i wasn't particularly creative or rebelled against what my parents did, i was drawn to it and i would say this idea of equality of opportunity is a red thread in my professional career that matters to me deeply. >> we drove around m.b.d. multi

lateral development break. when you speak to people what is the world bank. these are very smart people. but they don't follow the finer points or something called the -- you can get a car loan from these organizations. not because they are dumb, because they speak in not accessible to earth people and explain to staffers who are starting for a staffer tore an important member of congress, how do you explain what these organizes are. i know what this is and the folks in this audience know but folks in television land who may not follow this, what is these institutions important? >> we need the support of people

including on the hill who are working on thousand different issues. it's not surprising they don't -- >> it's not a crack on them but to your point, they have 25,000 other things to deal with and the finer points of something called a capital increase or quota reform is 250 on the list. >> if you go to the creation of these institutions, post-world war ii. countries have been devastated. you need to rebuild those countries and economies and that costs a lot of money. so what is an effective, efficient way to do that? and these development banks are just that, by pooling capital from countries from around the world. it's pooling capital from countries around the world, using that capital to go to

capital markets to rise even more money and the taxpayers' money is plult applied over and over again. you have a fantastic value for money and financial model. that's the first message i would give. secondly, these institutions have learned it is not just about money but what are the right policies, what are the right reforms and right choices that countries make to enable development and these institutions because they work around many countries in the region and around the world have a lot of lessons learned about what works and what doesn't and feed them back out in the form of support to policy makers in the form of technical assistance and countries build their own capacities and abilities for the work they do. highly leveraged, super great

knowledge and the last thing, they are a place that bring people around the table, not just people's money but bring people around the table. that is the definition of multi laterallism. and having people around the table trying to think through what is the best way to think about primary education or response to a global pandemic having people around the world and same table trying to slug through solutions have values in and of itself. >> money, knowledge, convening power. collective action and a form of cautionary and burden sharing, right? >> they do grants.

>> super duper. ok. ok. so there's the world bank, there are a series of regional development banks. the inter-american development bank, asian development bank and erbd and now p parts of subsaharan africa. >> collective action. >> so the -- there is a series of specific questions one might think, but let -- maybe we might talk about climate has been an important priority. if i said to you the world bank group and regional development banks and climate change, how has the biden administration approached the mbd's and

approaching the challenges of climate? >> the biden administration and treasury department has been approaching climate in a very bullish way. we talked about what benefits of these development banks. the world bank being created after world war ii. the world has changed since their creation. secretary yellen went to these development banks and said given that we have seen for example for covid extreme poverty increasing for the first time after decades of progress and not be educated, we see not just the pandemic example with climate change, we see reversal of development gains whether in the agricultural field, for example, but also increasing

violence that we see around the world how serious and strains on fiscal budgets because they have to spend more and more on security. given these three global challenges, climate change and pandemics and and conflict are not just threatening but reversing development gains, we need the institution to address that. so they need to think about infrastructure, operating models and financial capacity to help countries respond to these global challenges in a way that commits sustained progress on poverty reduction and sustained progress on inclusive works. that means integrating and their country diagnostics thinking through the positive and negatives of all these global challenges. let me be a more simple, you are

building a road today, if that road is not resist tapt to extreme heat or water, you are going to have to rebuild again. let's spend the dollars wisely and build it smartly the first time. and that's a simple way of talking about how these institutions need to take account and the banks have stepped up in massive ways. there's been a series of international agreements on climate. concept called just transitions where countries who are poor say i didn't contribute to the challenge of climate. i want to build a gap pipeline or take oil out of the ground, should m.b.d.'s be funding oil and gas projects which is the

technical -- how should they be funding oil and gas projects? >> i want to be very clear. there is no resilient long-term inclusive growth that is also not green. i do not one person around the world, one leader around the world, how do you transition to that. and that's difficult and that's where the just piece comes through, not just energy transition. as you figure out how to unlock the plentiful green jobs that will be unlocked because that has to be front and centerrer and manage that people don't lose out in short-term ways. so, you know, the united states is very clear that we believe that countries need to develop including in the energy space

without using fossil fuels. we have a collective of methodologies about how to design projects in line with the paris agreement and contributions. and so we work with the m.b.d.'s to look where the clean energy alternatives in a way that supports energy access and that remains a huge challenge in too many parts in the world and promotes energy security because we much seed the risk of reliance and on energy sources. all three of those, clean energy, energy security have to come together. we prioritize clean energy. we asked countries in the m.b.d.'s to do that. in the instances where there is no alternative particularly for

low-income countries there are are exceptions where we can support, for example, gas if that's needed. big message is the trajectory of the future is clean energy. we have three goals that go together and for some countries where there is no alternative or major national security prioritization there is a small window because we are pragmatic to consider other sources of energy. >> mining and minerals and trying to get smarter about mining and minerals and i think if we are going to have a carbon transition for e.v. batteries and defense and iphones, we are going to need a bunch of rocks out of the ground and turning them into minerals. i don't believe the american people are going to be cool with the idea, 40% 70% that these

minerals that are important are controlled by the chinese communist party. and this is my view, i think we are going to have a lot of problems in the united states saying ok, i was with the governor of arkansas two days ago and told me the third largest deposit of lithium is in arkansas and what oil has done for tesla and maybe this is the wrong place to say that -- she wants lithium that to be. if you said lithium. third largest resource in the world is arkansas for lithium, i would have never in a million years thought about that. i don't want a that we are going to solve nimby problems in the united states and the way with lawsuits and everything else and

permitting reform, i don't believe it, so we have to go to the global south and different kind of partnership. the m.b.d.'s are like the accelerant for that. we should be like -- if we were serious about it, we would have a vice presidency for mining and minerals. i know how they work. when you grow up, you can become vice president of minerals at the world bank. there is not a vice president -- i don't think there is a directorship for mining and minerals. and i'm sure there is like a sprinkling, i don't want to say crumbs or pebbles but pebbles across the system but not a big initiative. i want to talk about -- if we want to have a carbon transition, tell me, 30 times,

amount of cobalt. ain't going to be here and when the smoke clears, when the american people figure out they are switching their dependence from oil to the peoples' republic of china there is going to be a collective freakout. what is the picture of mining and minerals? >> i have to get smarter about mining and more comfortable about mining and what the smart mining and responsible mining look like. what you you were saying you were alluded that the m.b.d.'s have been -- >> they break out into cooties and work on six root canals than mining and minerals? >> there are a lot of risks, environmental risks, social risks and there was a retrenchment we have got to look at mining again.

and for the reason that you just mentioned, nickel, cobalt and lithium and not have the energy transition. dive into complexity and figure out how to support countries and by the way, it happens to be a beautiful thing where a lot of emerging markets happen to have those resources that is in perfect alignment of what the global economy needs that could be a win-win when they are shoveling a lot. the question becomes what do you need to do. mining isn't just about getting the stuff out of the ground but the right policy regimes in place around mining, lead issues. how do you spread the residue for mining that is shared and enjoyed and all those issues of governance around this is

important. and i think countries are saying this time around, we just don't want to be exporting materials but want to extract more value and we want to see refinement in our countries as well. you alluded to this in your brilliant opening, a lot of that processing is dirty, the technology in the united states dirty. very energy intensive and there is a lot of research and development needed to find the most efficient clean ways to do the processing and that is a big area of work as well and environmental labor standards. and under the japanese e-7 presidency, they came up with the idea of resilient and inclusive surprise chain enhancement. the rise proposal and not only

talk about the financing but do that work around of how these countries can answer the global supply chains and what work is needed, policy work and so countries can engage in this. and vice president is here -- >> he has come back. and made a return. >> you're right -- [indiscernible] >> they are working right now with part of the america's prosterity partnership and doing competitiveness analysis. several supply chains including critical minerals to figure out what they can be competitive in this space. >> i want to come to other things and there is. [indiscernible] what is that and tell us about what the biden administration is supporting?

>> one of my favorite topics and great to my colleagues here, in march, the i.d.b. group made the important decision notably its private sector arm part of the group that works with the private sector called i.d.b. invest and the shareholders approved a new business model for that institution and $3.5 billion capital increase. the super model is powerful because at its base the way i'm going to have impact is not deploying by my $3. # billion but my dollars and skill sets and develop them when they get to a point that the return on investment might be attractive to the private sector and go to go share that asset and that investment with the private

sector and bring them earlier. doing its role of taking the risk and identifying and inviting the private sector. this is originate the share model and doing this not only on a transaction basis which is tiny for the private sector but pool approaches to have a bunch of assets together. with the new capital i.d.b. will take more risk including in smaller economies in the caribbean, and do more equity which is a high impact instrument as well. so we expect to see about $102 billion over the next 10 years and what's important is we not only discuss i.d.b. invest in march, to have a strong private

sector and bunch of reform that we adopted around the new strategies of the public side of the house to make sure investment climate -- that the private interest sector will come and we looked at i.d.b. labs which is the entrepreneurial part of startups and does the building of the private sector and had a holistic strong group coming out of the march meeting. >> the biden administration has made a request to support this capital increase for i.d.b. invest? >> absolutely. it is in the fiscal 2025 budget. >> the argument would be if the congress supports this and makes a small contribution, they'll leverage multiples of that money? >> absolutely. all in the goal of impact, citizen, security and jobs, all

the good stuff. >> love it. thank you very much. i want to talk about the digital divide. the m.d.b.'s are important. knowledge partner, policy partner, convenor, problem. we all sat in our basements for a year during covid all over the world and there was an acceleration of the digital transformation. wasn't just in bethesda or silver spring but all over the world. the digital divide. my personal preference is not the unwholly trinity of what way. and we have to have an alternative. one of the major is the world bank, the private sector arms and various alphabet soups of regional development banks that

i listed earlier. tell me how you all think about closing the digital divide and what kind of progress are you seeing they are making on the closing of the digital divide? >> i want to agree with you about the harmful and those of us sitting in silver spring or bethesda, people in high income countries had access to the internet. 3.2 billion people around the world do not have connectivity. even in the united states, some do not have connectivity. we have a really long way to go. and m.d.b.'s has a powerful way to go. and they are stepping up to identify it as a major goal. for example, the world bank identified accelerating -- one of six global programs

that they've launched. what are these global issues? it's about combining the m.d.b s to have integrated solutions at scale with greater speed to be able to make progress on these issues. as they've identified, number one priority, basics. increasing broadband access. really critical. something we don't always speak about, digital skills. building up the digital skills so that the entire population can benefit from the changing nature of economies that are based on digital. the third piece is building the digital infrastructure. who are the vendors? we screen every project, whether

it's technology, to look out for un-trusted vendors. we take that responsibility seriously. >> things like digital public goods, identity, digital identity. that's common. that's part of the conversation. >> one more example. the european bank is working on its new strategy. they are thinking that private capital will be a goal. the second crosscutting goal would be digitalization. it enables every sector of the economy. >> i want to talk about women's empowerment which is a big topic. the m.d.b.s do a lot of things to support financial inclusion and other ways of supporting women. talk about that and what you've seen in your time and treasury. >> at the world bank, i focused on financial inclusion. i worked in that space for over a decade. i was a cfo. >> major league baseball

commission of micro-finance. >> lots of analogies here. i love it. i love it. you know, it is sometimes shocking to me -- you can look at how much progress has been made. it is shocking how much of a road we still have to go on these issues. even though the evidence, including randomized controlled trials, shows how powerful it is when a woman has access to financial services. the kind of investments that are made in the family, in education, in nutrition. not to mention the innovation and creativity that is unleashed in terms of women running their own businesses. the evidence is striking on this. yet there are legal challenges around land ownership or inheritance which makes it more

difficult. there are impediments with respect to girls in terms of savings. the data is clear. if you start financial services through savings at a young age, that puts you on a trajectory that's much better. in some places, you still can't open an account. >> if you are a woman. that's crazy. >> there is space and time issues. if your movement is limited in a certain country, think afghanistan, and you cannot make it to a brick and mortar bank, how do you have access to banking services in the privacy of your home, on your cell phone? so these are huge issues. it starts with financial identity. the infrastructure. greater diversity of financial institutions including non-bank financial institutions, credit unions, digital, the payout

point. if you are not going to a bank, you have to be able to go to a shop to get cash. financial literacy. really making sure that you are able to interact with financial services in a very smart way, that you understand the fees that are fair, that you understand the opportunities of compound interest rates if you are trying to save. huge agenda. women's entrepreneurial -- help me out. it's -- finance initiative may be. it's a really cool trust fund that tries to focus on high growth potential entrepreneurs. there's a lot of micro-spaces now. the high growth potential on spinners segment is harder.

women-owned, women led high-growth entrepreneurial. that's really exciting. >> i love it. i love it. great. i want to talk about a couple other things that are on my mind. i worked at the ifc in 2010. it's a different world than 15 years ago. china is now the largest financial year, bigger than the bank. don't quote me exactly on the statistic. they are bigger in debt than they were 20 years ago. there's this thing called belt and road. there's this thing called the asian infrastructure bank. anyways. i don't like it. whatever it's called, i don't like it. there's a series of belton road

is a positive forward-looking agenda that speaks to the hopes and aspirations of china's friends and potential friends. it's a great idea. the only problem is it is that it -- their idea. we will need to figure out what are forward-looking agenda is that speaks to the hopes and aspirations of america's friends and friends in the global south. anyways. all that said, very are a big oprah -- they are a bigger player in the global south than they were 20 years ago. the largest writing partner for 120 countries. often the largest debt holder for a lot of these countries. one of the largest infrastructure players in a lot of these countries. different than 25 years ago. ok. having said that, there's a couple things. the first is, i think the house of representatives last year voted unanimously to ask the biden administration, to ask the

moto -- multilateral system, there is some committee or group of organizations that sit in secret session to figure out who is a developing country and who is not. so they voted unanimously to say that china should not be a developing country anymore. what is the bite administration, the treasury department's reaction to the idea of the people's republic of china being a development country? >> secretary elledge has been unequivocal on numerous occasions while testifying on the hill. we do not believe that china should be borrowing from the multilateral development system. we don't think china should be borrowing from the international system. it's clear. we carry that posture into the boardrooms of the development bank. at the opec manual meeting in georgia, carried that message yet again.

one of our policy goals is to see a downward trajectory of china borrowing from the development bank to zero. there's a downward trajectory. i think china borrowing from the id rc is 3.6% of overall borrowing. it's on a downward trajectory. it needs to be steeper and it needs to get to zero. that's very clear. as far as china contributing to global development as a priority. for sure. >> ok. great. i love it. that was great. we could end the conversation right now. that's all i wanted to know. wonderful. thank you for that. the more thorny issue, and it's not -- there's not an elegant answer to this problem. but ok. 25 years ago, there was a

movement by religious people, some of it development advocacy people. it was a simpler time. there was a lot of multilateral debt and there was some big money center banks. in the 80's, you could get a bunch of guys in a room with cigars and you could still smoke cigars at the time to do this and you would work it out at the spring meetings and the conference room. you can smoke cigars in the conference room at the time. six or eight people would get in a room and solve this. now the world -- a lot of debt from china in various flavors. the terms of the debt are super murky. is it a 10 year loan or 20 year loan? is there collateral? what's the interest rate? was there a bribe paid or not as part of that? we don't know. so there's a lot of murkiness.

there's been efforts to try to get everybody including china to put their cards on the table in terms of saying, here's my debt, here's my -- etc. etc.. superduper more complicated. we went through this exercise 25 years ago. the administration and congress said, we will forgive debt and we will lead a process to forgive debt in many developing countries. there's many benefits to that. there was an african renaissance in a number of countries partially because of this. it was a good thing and it was the right thing to do. we are in a situation where a number of developing countries are now having heavy debt burdens, some are controlled by hedge funds. a lot of them. it's not eight. it's like a thousand of them. then you have a big lender in china where if you say, write off $100 of loans, it has an impact on their books back home.

also they have a big debt crisis domestically. if they take a 20% reduction on the $100 in zambia, some debt holder in shanghai is going to say, why do they get a 20% right off on their debt? why can't we get a write off on their debt? there's domestic applications for china. they've been not putting their cards on the table. they've been heavily resistant to various forms of collective action. g20 this and imf that. put your cards on the table this . it set her up. so what do we do about this really complicated debt crisis that china is heavily involved in? there's a big collective action problem. it's harder to solve this. some of the solutions may be less happy and pleasant because of the fact that china is a major debt holder and is involved in this. >> this is a really fundamental issue.

a number of countries that have's of negative -- significant debt vulnerabilities is one of the top challenges right now. i just want to remind ourselves of why this is important. when countries have superhigh debt servicing burdens, they are literally taking money away from investments in education and health to make those payments. our secretary gave a speech before the spring meeting where he talked about the fact that there's about 50 low income and middle income countries that actually have negative flows leaving their country. more money is going back out than they are getting in foreign aid. >> they are paying more on interest to these debtholders than all the collective foreign aid dollars that are coming to the door. more on debt than education. more on education then on health. is that true? >> that's a real challenge. what do we do? i think there's three prongs of

work that we need to focus on. the first one, which is back to basics, is avoiding countries from having a problem in the first place. >> amen. >> what does that mean? it means really investing in good management practices, good public financial management. the world bank in 2020 or 2021 released its new sustainable development finance policy that focuses on a couple things. number one, making sure that countries set policy goals around public financial and debt management. making sure that there is increased and better coronation across all creditors. it's a full transparency point. a real understanding of what's going on. thirdly, continuing to pressure. that's really fundamental. m.d.b.s have a strong role to

play in coronation with helping build those capacities in countries. a means that countries need to be able to think every time they borrow. they need to borrow. i borrowed to get my home. borrowing is not a bad word. >> it isn't a bad thing. >> you need to look at your portfolio. make sure that there's returns coming from your borrowing. even from the infrastructure space, how do you think about your infrastructure needs? how do you organize in your infrastructure master plan a balance of projects with the balance of sources so that it all evens out and put you in a good place? that's not what people talk about in most conferences because it feels technical and not exciting. but that's the foundational piece. i want to end on that. >> thank you. >> that -- secondly. even countries who do the right thing get close to being in trouble. the interest rate environment

has changed completely. they have borrowed at certain rates >>. > interest rates that rise and fall. >> even if they are doing the right thing, they are in trouble. how do we keep them from falling over the cliff? the speech was, how can bilateral creditors, the private sector step up for the countries that are doing the right thing that are about to fall off the cliff with a surge of the right type of financing so that we keep them afloat? a liquidity problem but not a solvency problem. that deserves much more attention. the third piece is what has gotten all the attention. countries that have already had major trouble. that's the work we are doing around the g20 framework to have

a predictable and timely process for debt restructuring for countries. the m.d.b.s have a huge role. they come -- come in and ingest financing to keep the countries afloat. the reality is that the debt restructuring has taken too much time. we need all countries, all g20 countries to step up to the plate and play their responsibility. we need to get countries through their debt restructuring in a much better way. we've made some progress. clearly that's high on the agenda. >> it's easy to say, we just need to solve this. isaiah said earlier, 40 years ago, this was an easier problem to solve. 4, 10, 20 stakeholders. now you have 400 or 800 stakeholders. not all of them are on the same page. it's a lot more complicated. it's an easy decision in a

comfortable think tank like mind to say, we can come up with elegant solutions. it's not easy. it's a very hard task. thank you for that. i want to come to one other thing that i think is really important. you know the ebrd which is the european bank for reconstruction and development. you served there with great distinction as a senior civil servant there, as a corporate officer i think. so it's the bank -- a private sector led bank for the post-soviet space plus now the sub's apparent -- sub's apparent africa. it's a big role in ukraine. could you please talk about, what is it doing in ukraine? can you also talk about what the biden administration did that was excellent early on in the war to support? i know you will be modest about this. i suspect you probably have something to do with what you

are going to describe. i think it was important the biden administration did that. >> it's a unique institution across the system. the focus trends -- focuses transition to market economy. frankly also very much in countries that are committed to democracy. so very effective in the former soviet bloc. after the arab spring, went into many countries in north africa and the middle east. major player in egypt. also expanded into mongolia and turkey. now there is six countries that are looking to start. eventually they will get countries operation status.

it was the first mover with conviction and determination and creativity in ukraine. >> the biggest investors. >> over 100 people living in the country. they knew the country inside out and were determined to have a role. very early on, identified a couple of key areas. one was supporting vital -- vital infrastructure. for example, making sure that the lights were caps on. that in the winter, there was heating. that was a really important piece. another one, ukraine is one of the bread baskets of the world. support to agriculture, a lot of work done in the early days. now that was really risky. it was a country at war. so we had the skills, the

knowledge to do work there. but we need to be able to have the risk covered for our shareholders. initially, they wanted a one-to-one coverage for their work. once they got into the country and started seeing what they could do, they reduced that coverage. the united states at record speed, and i am so grateful for all parts of the system, able to give them $500 million that provided that donor risk coverage and also incited other countries to provide donor financing. the ebrd was able to come in quickly and build support in the country. the last thing i will say, part of the strategy here is, even though there's a war in ukraine, economic activity is continuing.

what we call the real economy is continuing. the private sector needs to be supported. the more you preserve that, when peace comes -- fundamental. the ebrd is such an important partner. >> ukraine grew at 5% last year. the highest growth rate in europe. everything you say, i 100% agree. let me ask one last question about ukraine. maybe a little tricky. i would prefer that the united states provide grant support for ukraine. i think there's been discussion in the congress.

i did and op-ed. if push comes to shove, i want assistance to come to ukraine. so i'm of the view that for some kind of economic assistance, i would be ok with providing loans to ukraine. i wrote an op-ed knowing my audience. i wasn't going to write this on cnn. saying, we don't need a marshall plan for ukraine. we need a lend lease for ukraine. when fdr didn't have the political support to support the u.k., he lent stuff to the u.k.. i mentioned in the op-ed that the year that the british paid back there lend lease loans was 2006. that long. 1939. they paid it in 2006. i'm not going to do the math. it's more than 70 years or something. so i don't know. if we lend money to ukraine on a

70 year timeline, 70 year timeline, 10 year grace. . i don't know what the interest rate is at this point. we won't compare. let's say it's 0.5%. 10 year grace. 70 year term for paying it back. couldn't we live with some of this? i'm not saying i want to do this. i would prefer gramps. -- grants. i would prefer other vehicles. what is your reaction to the idea of providing loans to ukraine? what would you say to that? >> i will be brief here and say the following. i'm grateful for the stuff that went through. that was vital. the u.s. has been a leader in our support for ukraine from day one. i think are quick and fast

support for ukraine really helped to rally the europeans. i believe we came through with the stuff. we need assistance for ukraine. >> i understand. thank you. we've been very active here supporting. we took the first real congressional delegation to ukraine. three republican members of congress. three democratic members. elizabeth hoffman is a genius. organizational genius. a certainly hard worker. it was her idea. we took the first real staff. it was her idea. i was happy to be her wingmen on both of these. we took eight staffers for the first trip down to ukraine. i'd like to make it easier for members of congress to visit ukraine. this is a different department. it's not you.

we did for days on the ground in ukraine for staffers. my colleague went to 80 republican house offices to ask. for said yes, to flaked. we had a senator. three republicans. getting democrats wasn't a problem. we wanted republicans. we were able to get republican staffers. we've done a lot with our ukraine economic reconstruction commission. we will do a conference in september. we would love to have senior treasury participation in that. we are all in that. i understand your point on what you've said about ukraine. i have a couple questions from the audience. i want to give a chance to smart people. my friend rich this all has a couple questions. he was at the world bank. so, what is the state of play in

the ida replenishment? what is the target? it's the soft lone window for the world bank. >> thanks. that's a huge priority. it provides grants and low cost loans for the poorest countries in the world. we very are proud of our donors. money has to be replenished. you have to give money regularly to it on a three year cycle. with covid, the u.s. accelerated their replenishment of ida and it was a historic replenishment. the world has not recovered evenly everywhere. the demand continues to be huge. there's a demand to be larger than $100 million. the president convened african leaders in nairobi two weeks ago on that case. the replenishment is still happening. right now, the u.s. would say

two things. biden saying it needs to be robust from all sources. when i was in government last time, we had an innovation where it went to the market for the first time. able to use track record to go to the market and that made it big. we want to see what work can be done so we could be a source of increased growth for all the donors doing their best. the u.s. will do our best. we are focusing on the policy package. ida is about impact. you need money to have impact. we want ida to focus on doing even more around debt management practices. is not a priority for us? we want ida to do more to help countries be prepared to tackle these global challenges that i

mentioned. we want the financial model for ida to be sustainable. we want to leverage the balance sheet but in a way that's cognitive and of the fact that we want concession malady from ida. the money that's raised on the market is more expensive. balancing short and long-term goals. the u.s. has an incredible bipartisan track record for being a strong partner. i imagine that will continue. >> i hope so. this is from a former u.s. indonesia. you've been such a great leader of the j etp process. explain to earth people, i don't know what that is. it's -- could you give us an idea on how the process is

progressing? >> ambassador blake has been such an important part of the just energy transition partnership. it's a really exciting model of how to help countries with their energy transitions that started initially with africa and then indonesia was the second country. essentially the idea of creating and aligning support government big ambition. governments that are you -- willing to have huge ambitions. targets around getting to mets zero for example. public sector financing. there's about nine countries that have made commitments to the indonesian piece. also the private sector. when the just energy transition was announcer indonesia, there was a $10 billion commitment on the sector side and from banks

that are a member of the g 10 alliance. and then there's the policy piece. so that's the model. indonesia released a comprehensive investment and policy plan which basically has the policy commitments that they need to make. a list of projects that speak to the need for projects in the renewable space, for cold decommissioning because they are very reliance on coal, and products around diesel is asian. -- dieselization. it affects all aspects of the economy. indonesia has a lot of cycles. electricity man -- demand has grown. they are saying, we are not going to stop our growth.

we have a commitment around the jet piece. we discovered a lot more coal in the system. it means industry developing their own energy sources which we didn't know about. the country is now working with the international energy association to really understand how much they have. and we are working on policy changes. we've identified priority projects for 2024 that we hope will come to a financial close. that includes a cold decommissioning project. it includes wind and solar. there are still some tricky policy issues including around local content requirements. it's an election year. a new government has been elected. we are waiting for the new one to take power but we understand that they will continue to support the goals of this project.

the last thing i will say on this is, these are major whole of economy changes. very difficult. if people want quick wins, leave. if you have resolve and determination and the ability to keep your northstar, keep focused on the big goal, we can move mountains. the indonesian jet people proved to be successful every day. every day is not easy but i think it will accelerate indonesia zone energy and climate ambitions as well. >> please thank me in joining our guest. >> thank you. [applause] >> can i give you a hug? >> yes. thank you. i'm really grateful.

ok. i will begin touch. let's get together for lunch. [inaudible]

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♪ >> american history tv. saturdays on c-span two. exploring the people and events that tell the american story. 2:00 eastern, lauren thompson with her book friendly enemies, talks about prohibition. union and confederate shoulder -- soldiers often fraternize. remember the korean war. ralph puckett junior, a korean war veteran and medal of honor recipient, lay in honor at the u.s. capitol in washington, d.c.. then a symposium on the korean war from text interest -- texas christen university. 7:00 eastern, the american history tv series looks at historic congressional investigations that led to changes in policy and law. this week, the 1987 hearings on the around contra affair examining the clandestine operation of selling missiles to